Post from Kiet on actions... Subject: Re: [pnpgm] Ruling on Oblivion... I have a great idea...let's send someone to Oblivion and then build a solid pillar in that place and see what happens when he returns... sounds like fun...except for the volunteer. heehee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Adams" To: "PBEM List" Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 11:57 PM Subject: [pnpgm] Ruling on Oblivion... > > Ok. This subject of Oblivion could get way out of hand so I want > to address it in a separate file. I can argue points in the PNP > mailing list if need be. But I want to give my views on it then > give my ruling. If you don't care anything about the Oblivion > subject-thread then ignore this post. > > First, over the last decade in this game I've done like I do for every > player group I've had in the last 30 years. Its a learning curve for > myself and for the players. As groups get more powerful I tweak the > rules and get less lenient. For example Adventure #1 I didn't care > about food or water. Adventure 2 I did. In first 2 I didn't care > much about horse encumbrance but now I do. In first two adventures > I didn't care about item damage but from 3 on I did. Rules change > and rules shift. This is to improve play in various ways. It helps > folks get acquainted with the game and with the style of play. Also > as you guys get far far more powerful I have to balance it to the > good guys favor again. Otherwise it would be a walk in the park > each time. I'm a strong believer in Balance. > > Now for this adventure more rules will be used like movement effects > from damage, trauma and some minor other ones I've not used before. > > Now with that said let's look at the spell. > > OBLIVION ALIGNMENT Balance > > The spell transports a specific victim within the caster's > range to oblivion. He ceases to exist in a meaningful sense until > the duration ends. The Caster who sent him can recall him. The > cost to recall someone is twice that required to send him. > While a victim is in oblivion he is not affected by the > passage of time. When the Duration of the spell ends he returns > to the place from which he was sent exactly as he was when he > left. It will seem to him that he had a momentary blackout though > years may have passed. > A Hit Point Limit applies with this spell. If the creature > is larger, the amount of the excess is added to his MDV in > resisting. If the result of the spell is Abysmal Failure the > Caster goes to oblivion. He remains there until the Duration > ends. > > > I'll take it apart line by line. > > The spell transports a specific victim within the caster's range to > oblivion. > > GM: 1) I can interpret that "transport" to a shift in existence or > dimension. 2) Oblivion can be a place or a non existence. > > He ceases to exist in a meaningful sense until the duration ends. > > GM: "cease" is a harsh word. It could be a physics level term like > a black hole. When you reach a certain point then you cease to > exist but are always technically everywhere in the universe on > a quantum level. For Fantasy some feel its a niche hole. > > The Caster who sent him can recall him. > > GM: "recall" could in some ways mean that the GM can say "come back" > and poof he is back. A bit vague there. > > The cost to recall someone is twice that required to send him > > GM: There you go have to expend mana or energy to recall him so > its a willful act that seems to be directed toward the gods > as all "mana" requests are in the mythos. > > While a victim is in oblivion he is not affected by the passage of time. > > GM: Seems straight forward. But some can read this as cease to > exist on a normal "thinking" level or simply in the middle world. > Oblivion could be a upper world realm for example. So why > can't the folks just be sent there? No time passes and no > escape from this place. > > When the Duration of the spell ends he returns to the place from > which he was sent exactly as he was when he left. > > GM: Here is the tricky part. "from which he was sent". Will > return to this :) > > It will seem to him that he had a momentary blackout though years > may have passed. > > GM: Hours or years. In one culture punishment is 200 years in > Oblivion. > So this is well beyond the age of a person. Ergo we must conclude > that maybe the spell remains even after the caster's death? > This seems only logical but then may mean the spell is tied to > a place or god and not a caster. > > A Hit Point Limit applies with this spell. > > GM: This seems to imply that a hit point limit is for living things. > Therefore does this mean objects can't be included? It doesn't > say structure points or DR. In pnp material life is DR damage > resistance. So does this rule out items? > > If the creature is larger, the amount of the excess is added to his > MDV in resisting. > > GM: Makes sense. But it doesn't put a size limit to a object. > > If the result of the spell is Abysmal Failure the Caster goes to > oblivion. > > GM: Make sense. But one could read it as if he can stop the spell > could he do it from inside? I'd say not. The gods would not > like the punishment be that easy. > > He remains there until the Duration ends. > > GM: That cancels out the recall order so he can't just stop it. Which > supports my comment. > > DURATION 2 months (EL factor applies as a power) > RANGE (EL+1)*2" > > HIT POINT LIMIT (EL+1)*6 > > GM: Notice this formula. Means 6 hits for EL0. How many pcs have > that low or creatures. One could reason that the spell is meant for > small things as a base not large things. Even at a decent eL10 your > only talking 66 points which can't even trap a dragon. > > Now, I did some more research... > > POTEH Contact Level 9 > Lord of Oblivion, Master of Forgetfulness, God of Forgotten Knowledge, > collector of things lost, Reader of Fate, Lord of the Unknown, Knower > of the Unknowable, the eternal void, Warden of the Forgotten Well, > dweller beyond the veil, Master of the Planes, Keeper of the > Unalterable > > GM: Based on that I can infer Oblivion is a place not a thing. The > person simply doesn't stop and poofs out. He does go somewhere. > Likely based on the above to his realm. > > > Alex found this ... > > Book 2 p.32 OBLIVION An Innate user of this spell using Energy Level > rather than trained Casting Ability rolls Abysmal Failure - is the > caster sent to Oblivion? [No] > > > GM: From some errata stuff. Looks like Questions to Richard and not > sure if you answered or he did. But to me that denies > divine punishment. :< > > > GM: Another interesting Oblivion keyword found was in the western lands. > A dragon has Oblivion innately through touch. > > GM: Another search found is Sentinel Beast from v2 It however seems > to break general concepts of this rule. Oblivion used by this > creature send the person d100 miles away from the target. Thus, > this implies the oblivion can shift or the god protector of this > creature "allows" the target to be turned away for the SB's > protection. > > Now the theory is to make Oblivion a big-bag-o-many-holdings. > > Personally I despised the D&D version of the bag. It was abused way > too much. "Where is my sword..oh there...hey I found your sailboat > back here...Jo you need your wagon its still here too..." > > I personally prefer brains over dependent skills and spells. Role > playing is to me far more enjoyable than simply pushing a button and > getting something done or casting a spell. We have all seen the > abuse spells like Time Travel (oh I'll go back and do the right path > to the gold), Wisdom/Knowledge (oh gee I don't need to think of that > puzzle I'll just download it from the gods), and other spells. To > me using your brain is far more rewarding. > > With that said....Panther is right where do you draw the line between > spell mechanics and science. Fantasy and Science? In the past I > have been lenient with the spell in that you can take stuff with > you and just release it. At that point I didn't care. But when > it comes to hiding magic items (a cheap way rather than using brains) > than it becomes more important. > > Some the question is > > 1) Can you recall the person back where you currently are or back > where the spell was originally cast? > 2) Can items be put into it > 3) Can a box of held items be used? > > Based on the above Oblivion is either a place or a non existent thing. > A pocket void. A niche universe. If we go with science it is a > niche universe, alternate dimension or other world. If we bring > that out further we could consider string theory to be attached. > Based on the fantastical pnp universe and mythos and Poteh it should > be a place, a realm in the upper world. A place where folks might > or might not be able to wander around but not escape. It could > be a realm where even he might travel and find the person. As to > the person ceasing to exist. Maybe that is in the middle world but > not the upper world. Once back he will have no memory of such things. > Being a god, and god of Oblivion, one could assume Poteth has rule > over the realm and can enter it at will. . If he found a person of > value or interest (or item). He could interact with it. This brings > a new aspect to the oblivion idea of balance. Could also add spice > to things sent to Oblivion. :) > > Based on the Sentinel beast's odd ability that implies the gods have > some ability to protect the beast. Poteh just happens to be the > god of choice for this beast. Therefore Richard must have felt that > Poteh has the ability to AFFECT the spell results. Ergo my interaction > above should fit. If I were to interpret the "return to the place" > where it was cast line I would have to conclude that it is where it > was cast. The niche universe doesn't roam with you. As to the whole > deck of a ship thing one could look at String Theory and assume > hyperspace, whitespace, niche universes and other dimensions are > attached to ours at the same "string" point. If we go with that then > the deck of a ship is moot. The planet may have moved in the universe > but the person returns back to the earth not to space. On a simple > common sense term this fits for fantasy as well. Personally I prefer > the spell be used at spot and not taken with you. But seeing as the > S.B. can affect the parameters that seems to make me think. One could > argue the anchor to the spell is attached to the caster. That the > niche universe roams with the caster. Based on this argument I will > allow it to travel though I personally think that could lead to > major abuse. But I can balance that out. The "anchor" is a mana > detectable presence and thus can be detected/senses. As a permanent > oblivion ward might be attached to a building. So even though you > might hide items there is still magic signatures around the caster. > This also means a trapped beast angry about to kill a caster would > also find the caster again at the duration if it travels with him. > So that adds a bit of danger spice. :) > > Items are a bit more unclear. Common sense say a person brings his > clothing with him. Invisible, insubstantial seems to affect > items so common sense would say the spell can affect such items. So > where do you draw the line? Clothing but not a wagon the person > is sitting on? The hit point limit doesn't give much hope so > if one were to include items one must assume some size or value > limit. So yes items can be allowed. But I'll have to come up > with some rules on that. Magic items will clearly defend with their > MDV. The exact rules I think I'll come up with privately a formula > on size or hit like point system. A talisman might be easier than > say a full magical dragon armor suit. So those rules I'll work up > on. It might be that each item will have to be rolled for. A box > theory still might resist the items inside. Think of it as Poteth > not wanting anti-his alignment items in his realm. > > The box within a box or a Bag covering things is a clear trick. But > I suspect size limits have to apply even on non magical items. One > simply can't poof a castle or wagon away at EL0. Just seems way > too powerful for that. (Think of the Dragon in the example for the > spell - too big). So I'll apply some hidden rules on that as well. > It will have to be experimental. Based on the whim of Poteth. > As you might get to EL10 maybe you could poof a wagon at that point. > This then also brings the issue of odd items like sand or water. > Since there is no people how will Poteth react to such use of the > spell for his realm? Sand dirtying up his place? Or an apple tree > suddenly popping up in his estate. Not good if he hates apples. > So yes place items in a sack or box. Try to poof it all at once. But > things inside can still defend against the spell likely if Poteth > feels it might annoy him. > > > Conclusion > > 1) Oblivion - Upper World Realm > 2) Poteth maybe other gods could enter this realm interact with objects > and people in oblivion if so desired. > 3) Poteth can affect spell results any or all spell parameters > 4) The trapped person can travel with caster > 5) Anchor to person is magic detectable > 6) Items allowed in oblivion > 7) Items will defend if magic against won't help unless intelligent > 8) Poteth could affect item transport > 9) Can use box/sack full of items with size or item value limits and > Poteth can affect such item transport > > > That should be good balance :) > > Hey...an idea...if Poteth can send things 200 miles away for S.B.s' > maybe he could reverse it..send other things through the gate...hrmm > > I shouldn't have read that SB entry :) > > I will work on the item rules/mechanics during the cruise mentally > when I have time. > > > A clap of thunder sounds as the god's gavel pounds down.... > > So say I.... > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > pnpgm mailing list > pnpgm@abroere.xs4all.nl > http://abroere.xs4all.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pnpgm > From: "Schnockel" To: Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 10:26:16 -0700 Subject: [pnpgm] Kiet's 'votes' Kiet says, "Well, I am not one for arguing about how we do things. My votes will be to join with whatever our logical leader, Unali, of this expedition decides. I will merely help as I can." _______________________________________________ pnpgm mailing list pnpgm@abroere.xs4all.nl http://abroere.xs4all.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pnpgm